Hines nurseries gets de-listed at stock exchange
It looks like Hines nurseries are having further troubles. The second largest wholesale nursery in the country was just de-listed on the New York stock exchange according to Open Register.
Well over a year ago we discussed the problems at Hines. I said then, “We don’t have too much sympathy for Hines. We don’t buy from them as they are thick in the box stores. Could this be that the boxes are squeezing the wholesale nursery trade? I know that at Home Depot, vendors like Hines, don’t get paid until the product is sold at the retail level. If the plants remain unsold for any reason, Home Depot does not pay. Considering the care plants receive at my local Home Depot I am not surprised that there are many unsold plants. I wouldn’t get the same treatment from Hines or any of my vendors. I have to pay, and then do my best to sell them.â€
One of the reasons I have a negative reaction to “Urban Outfitters†getting into the garden center business is because it’s a publicly traded company. Stockholders don’t have a lot of patience when it comes to rainy springs, hot summers, the real estate market slowing, and other common problems that our industry deals with. How do you explain to them that next year, if the weather co-operates share prices might go up?
I hope Urban-Outfitters stores make it. It’s just that pressure to have an up season every year makes companies do strange things. Hines and other wholesalers not being paid until the product is sold is one example.
I also have little sympathy for Hines and other suppliers to the big boxes who end up in trouble. It is fine with me if a grower chooses to supply them, just as I can choose growers who are dedicated to the smaller and independent retailer like myself. When a grower has to jump through all of the hoops for a big box, I know that they will not be able to concentrate on my business.
We have seen many larger competitors come and go in our area of Ohio, and with each new one that enters the area we hear retailers woried that this will be the end. Yet each time we see the same thing happen, customers checkout the new store, maybe even buy a few bargains; then they return to us over time as they see the difference in quality and service that we provide. On top of that they save time because we are closer and they don’t have to walk past aisles of hardware and plumbing to checkout when all they wanted was a bottle of Roundup.
It sounds like some of these large nurseries need to revisit their business model and who they serve. I can’t imagine how they would make any money selling to Home Depot under those terms. Oh, wait, they apparently don’t.
They need to get back to “their roots”, (sorry about the bad pun).
Carol at May Dreams Gardens
It doesn’t work real well as a business model when the retailer sets the wholesale price. Much as I wish I could do that with my suppliers, instinct tells me that it might have an effect on quality down the line….
Shall we start a pool on how soon Hines files for bankruptcy, or gets bought out?
Galis, I am glad to hear that things are good for places like yours. It seems that there is still a place for well run smaller independents!
Carol, I love your “bad pun”, and the sound of of your “sneaky” salsa. “May Dreams Sneaky Salsa”
Don, I am going to take the long shot and say Hines gets bought out by Scott’s. That way Scott’s will have the plant side of the equation all tied up. All right, its a real long shot.
Hi Trey,
Well, I hate Hines. That is a strong word but I feel like they are backstabbers. We wouldnt deal with them still but one of the 3 owners likes them and so still places orders. Are you ready for this? I heard that in one of the past few years, we were the largest seller for Hines, out of CA independents. UGH. What I really hate is how they say they have things, so we place an order….and then when it arrives they are out of all the things we really needed. Sadly, our nusery is going through a restructure and the owner who favors them will be gone. While I am sorry to see him go, I will NOT be sorry to see Hines go out with him, let hope!
Tina, Its a drag to build am order around plants you need and when the order gets there it the stuff that you really didn’t need that shows up.
The CEO is the person responsible for killing the company. Hines tried to get exciting new plants that had garden value to independent garden centers. The CEO said that the company would focus its efforts on Home Depot and Lowes. Hines had a depth of new products and a team to service the Independent garden centers – they were all fired in 2005. Since then, more than 100 managers have departed. I doubt you can call and get a live person on the phone.
It seems like the rampage is going on again! Hines is now re-vamping all the internal sales people, and making them re-apply for a “Limited” number of corporate jobs, so it looks like the support will get worse, not better! What in the heck is that management thinking? Are they just trying to kill this business? Every month the service and products get worse, they continue to say that they want to support independent stores, but then they turn around and give the entire product away to the box stores! Hello management, get a clue here your $$$$ is with us, NOT Wall mart, Lowe’s & Home Depot! Time for a hostile take over I think, the stock is well below .33/share now! My sales rep works so hard to get product staying up until 10:00 every night, but there new I/T system is so whacked out because it was installed 6 months prior to when it should of been because the new AXE man wanted to get it up! Small thing about the guy he had NO background about computers! And Hines lost MILLIONS in spring because this whack job forced a pre-mature conversion, in the springtime! Hello, that is XMAS time for us! No wonder they finally let him go! Now they want to consolidate everything to a centralized system for all sales people! Sorry, again somebody who does NOT know how people and the business works is trying to take another type of business model and make it work here.
So, the clock is ticking for Hines, unless the Board steps in and cleans house in upper management and goes back to doing what it did 3 years ago when the stock was in the $5.00 range it will continue to loose customers & staff!
Word of advice Hines, go back to supporting your base, and dump the box stores!
Robert,
After reading your comment and anonymous it does appear that Hines made some management changes that affected business. I had no idea what was going on, so your info is a huge help.
IMO small independent retailers should buy from small independent wholesalers. I haven’t ordered from Hines or Monrovia in years. I have yet to see a big wholesaler successfully serve both independent and big box retailers; it’s one or the other, and when they shift their focus to the big box we lose service, we are lower priority, and our orders are the ones that get filled last. Why bother? There are plenty of small growers ready and willing to fill your needs.
While it’s been a few years since I departed the sinking ship that is Hines Horticulture, Inc., I still have some contacts in various roles around the country. I just want to go on record saying that it is sad what the management has done for this company. Hines bought out successful color operations in the North and Southeast, only to drive those operations into the ground.
Management never adapted from their autonomous site business plan, which worked quite well when the company was only 4 sites. Once they purchased Oregon Garden Products, the color sites in the Northeast, the color facility in AZ, and lastly the facility in FL, no one stepped up to the plate and defined a business strategy for all acquisitions to work together.
Rather than having these sites complement each other in various markets, what wound up happening was sites were competing, selling the exact same product into the exact same region. Sales flounder, so what is the solution? OOoh, I know! Let’s make all of the sites conform to one standard growing, selling and operational structure!
Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Once amazing operations became riddled with inefficiencies. Customers of acquired sites no longer put any trust in those facilities and sales took a dive. Now Hines has divested a good portion of those facilities, but the numbers are still falling. How does a publicly traded company screw up so badly, so consistently, for so long? I lay the blame squarely on the shoulders of the board of directors. Someone needed to pull up on the yoke a long time before now.
That’s too bad, in a way. When I worked with Hines about 5 years ago, they were great – responsive and pretty supportive when customers were that lovely combination of demanding and indecisive.
Example: one of my landscape clients wanted a 15-gal multistem Albizia but sent the first one we received back – didn’t like the shape. So Hines then sent us 4 plants and we sold the one the client wanted, plus one more that was hanging out on the dock, and they picked up the other two.
This was when you could move nursery stock around willy-nilly, which of course you can’t anymore.
However, I’m in the low sympathy boat as well because with the big box stores, well, they knew it was a snake when they picked it up.
Don, I agree with you except the part about plenty of local growers. If you include all of northern California then yes there are some. But in the Sacramento Valley I haven’t come across that many great growers. Who am I missing?
Long since departed, Yes, the problems Hines is having rest squarely on the shoulders of management. Publicly traded companies are not immune to screwing up, witness Home Depot and its recent troubles. They always blame the economy but we’re starting to see the curtains parting.
Dharma, From you comments and others its clear this company has fallen very quickly from a good company to one being de-listed on the stock exchange. We’ll see how this all shakes out.
Trey,
You noted that Hines is #2 in the country; who are #1 and 3? Now I’m curious.
Dharma
Some Valley growers include Hollandia, Van’s, High Ranch, Matsuda’s, Sonoda, Sierra View, among others. Of course, there’s Monterey Bay and Suncrest nurseries outside the area. I’m not intentionally leaving anyone out, these are just a few off the top of my head.
Can anyone recommend a couple of independent wholesale growers, of indoor plants in particular, based in Colorado or the central Rocky Mountains? I am looking for sources not only of common houseplants but some unusual epiphytic plants, bromeliads, cycads, succulents, and so on. Thanks
December 12, 2007
It seems that there are now floods of great folks leaving the sinking ship that has sailed at Hines!
In December alone Hines has or will loose more than 5 of it’s Ind. sales folks, not to mention how many they lost in the last 6 months!
OMG where did these fools learn business practices from anyway?
Hines is now throwing in the towel for supporting & selling to Independants!
Hines is going down the lost sole path of selling to the Big Box stores ONLY!
So, let me get this streight, you grow product for $3.00 sell it to ind’s for $5.50 and now you want to sell that SAME product to Big Box stores for $2.80 !
Hello Hiens Management! What in the world are you doing?
Or maybe they actually know that they are destroying Hines, once one of the best in the country, now one of the worst!
Congrats Hines Management you have discovered how to destroy a good American company in the shortest time!
So, folks if you know some of the GOOD people at hines that are looking to get off this water soaked log, please give them a call and offer them a JOB!
As for upper management, I hope you RIH !
PS: Axe man, better watch your back, I heard someone was looking to fire your Hinnie!
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I think Robert and the other departed people from Hines understand the issues as well as know the solutions to solving Hines problems. There is no way that this company will continue to operate through 2008. The upper management is not from the nursery industry, they do not know how to manage living inventory, connect with customers and lead a company. They are out of touch with the customers. Home Depot and Lowes don’t want to purchase plants from Hines either!
If you know people working at Hines that are looking for new positions, I would recomend to hire them. The people working at the sites are some of the best educated people in the industry. Given the opportunity, they will contribute to profits. They know how to measure and monitor key functions within the production side. The sales reps are well trained and have experience. These people working at Hines want to leave and will given the chance. Please, if you are looking for people to hire in your wholesale nursery, feel free to call on the people at Hines.
If you are a retailer, please call the sites directly to purchase your plants. They want to sell to you and be given the chance to do so. Yes, the costs will be going down as well this upcoming year, as they need to generate cash to keep the nurseries functioning.
If you are an investor, I recomend looking into this company. Once the upper management is fired, the people at the sites KNOW how to run a nursery, be customer focused and be profitable. A simple house cleaning at the top, a forward looking approch to talk and listen to customers will go a long way. Just look at the postings on these pages to see that the customers still care!
So, we now have Jim, the VP of ALL sales at Hines getting the AXE, the “AXE MAN†himself gets the boot on Thursday, Jan 30, 2008! What does this say about Hines? Well, they have no person in charge of sales now, and the new person for the INDY group comes from the old Fresno CA site where who knows what he did there! And he is going to bring some order to this organization? Hello board of directors, earth calling the Board! Come in please &^^^#*&$#()*)(#$ yes it sounds like static! Nobody home there I guess!
And now they have a new Fallbrook manager with loads of experience in the Green area! His background is in “Paper Productsâ€! What you say! “Paper Productsâ€, yes, not “Plants†but “Paperâ€, yes they both begin with the letter “Pâ€, but that is it ! Absolutely NO, NADDA, ZIP background in PLANTS! AGAIN, Board of directors Human Resources…..where in the world are you getting these people? Have you no clue at all about this business? (I GUESS NOT!).
OK, lets have a Glen Walters or someone who actually has their act together step in and get this company, since they went “Dark†last week to the public for financials, maybe some good company can pick them up, and toss the top management, and keep all the hard working folks who are putting in 16-18 hours every day to keep it from sinking, and to try to get past all of the BAD planning that is going on inside with these folks who don’t know a “Plant†from a “Paper Plateâ€.
Well, it looks like Hines may be going up on the “For Sale” block soon! Rumor has it that a small financial group lead by a former Hines employee is charging ahead with a offer to purchase the failing dirt pile that today’s uper management has created.
Maybe this financial group will dig into the Texas management cloud and fire the lot of them, especially those in the planing department who have NO experience in the plant industry!
This could actually be a good thing for those at hines who work so hard every day to meet the expectations of thier crazy Texas management!
I would say that since the debt has been refied now and restructured, that Hines, at least some of those people who actually know the business may pull out of the hole that the Texas management and the poorley managed I/T department & shamefull field managers who refuse to sell the plants that Hines actually grows once they become open stock. Also maybe someone with some intellect will look at the crapy business model that creates the illusion of actually making money by selling lower to box stores than it costs to grow the plants! I could never figure that one out!
I say something should break loos here in 2-3 weeks max!
What say you?
ok mayeb some of the people who left hines should really look and reasearch things before they speak. not all of the box store pay only when the product is sold. only some of them. these stores are called pay by scan stores and it is only with some of the home depots. others pay before or when they recieve the product. it works like a credit card does. they buy and buy for a certain period of time then they must pay for what they have bought. some of the home depots yes are pay by scan stores, but only SOME of the HOME DEPOTS. others such as lowes and wal-mart are not pay by scan. there are also many many different independt locations that are buyers as well as some medium sized compainies such as houston garden centers calloways nurseries and john deere amoungst many others. and as for being a publicly owned buisness hines soon will no longer be one. not because there is no sale or profit only because being a publicly owned buisness as a nursery is not as easy as it is for other buisnesses. speaking of which hines is and has been the only publicly owned nursery ever recorded. thats a record in itself. hines will not be going bankrupt or be going up for sale anytime soon. and if anyone here knew anything about the hiring of people you would understand that you do not have to have plant expierence to be a vp of a nursery only have good vp expierence, or have the right qualifications to do the job. ever thought maybe this guy does have what it takes to make hines better? many people do great things with people thinking the worst about them. and well its been well more than 2-3 weeks and hines is still going strong so someone was wrong. you people that have left hines need to quit being angry and actually reasearch more than one site before talking.
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i understand what you are saying and have to completely agree with you on the fact that hines should have a blog posting on the internet or even on the web site itself. your opinion is duely noted and i give my word that i will look into this and see what i can do about trying to make this happen. i say trying only because i am one man and to put it frankly im not on the top of the food chain. but i see your point and like i said i give my word to bring this up and do my best to make this a possibilty. i agree that a blog can help with customer satisfaction and it will help us know where we stand with our customers.
and to answer your question on why it has taken someone so long to comment on this honestly i have no idea. someone has definatly researched this company that works here. just dont think they have taken the time to reply on this. as for me i just recently started her a few months ago (transferred from another company) and didnt feel comfortable replying on this blog without knowing the buisness well enough to do it accurately. on behalf of the company i do apologize for this.
Well, again Hines is working wonders! They seemed to have wrapped the $$$ into another re-fi with the investors and now the company is asking for everyone to submit current job descriptions to management! That does not sound good! I hope the INDY Sales staff has some good job leads! looks like Hines may just be selling to the Box stores and drop the Indy line totally. Great business plan, drop the ONLY group that can actually make the company money!! What an idea! The finance folks should be FIRED for such wackey choices!
If the folks who own the stock in the company were actually interested in what is going on, they should have a third party investigate how Hines does business and talk to the inside folks, and sales people.
We did hear that even the Box stores were looooosing $$$ now! It is about time someone did the math, you can’t sell a $4.50 plant to the box store for $3.99 and make money!
So, if you know anyone still at Hines, it may be time to call them up and make a job offer to the good ones who work hard every day to make it work, dispite how management is trying to Tank Hines!
And yes, we still think Hines will be sold off, it is just a slow process.
And TexasTim, if you think that the Hines I/T department can actually pull off supporeting a Blog, Please see me I have a lot of swamp land in Florida I need to sell off! Please………..Get real, that I/T department struggles just to get through each day! And with a “New and Improved Oracle” application just about ready to “Hit the Fan” (Again) they will be up to the ceiling with problems, even the hired consultants who speak little english will be able to help them resolve!
Yep, Hines had and is having very hard times, good management and good direction are ONLY as good as the Captain of the ship!
And this one is going down…….do we hear a big sucking sound in your area yet?
Roger-
Now Hines it talking about laying off the Indy sales group! How much more can Hines take befor they actually Tank?
Folks if you still know any of the good Hines people there, make contact with them and see if you can help them out in locating new jobs! There are still some old timers who are very good at what they TRY to do dispite Uper managements Bad choices!
Make those calls today, tomorrow may be to late for some here….
Roger-D
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I have been watching with great interest the story that has been unfolding on your blog for the last year, and it just reinforces the old adage that rumors take on a life of their own that always far out-pace reality. I would love to comment on many of the statements that have been made here by all of you that have some sort of axe to grind against large nurseries, the big box stores, or just
Hines specifically, but my wife is impatiently waiting for her new kitchen, so I will only address the latest comments. Incidently, I have been in this business for 37 years in retail, and wholesale, both hard goods and greengoods, and have actually sold plants to some of you many years ago when I worked for a wholesale nursery that only sold to independents and landscapers, and went broke. That nursery is now covered with houses. I have worked for Hines as a sales rep selling to only box stores in California for the last ten years, and can tell you that yes, Hines is in serious financial trouble, as is Bordiers, and Elmodeno and many others; yes we do have idiots from the non-nursery industry running the assylum; yes, hopefully a sale may be in the works, and yes, BofA did make us solvent with a very healthy line of credit, and yes, the ATP system that was ill-conceived by JK who has recently been promoted (go figure) has nearly destroyed the company. And of greatest concern to us veterans has been the mass bloodletting that drove many highly skilled, experienced nursery folk from the company and to our competitors. That being said, I can tell you with the greatest degree of confidence that Hines is not considering laying off or doing away with the indy team, since they are still 30% of our business, and, no the company is not asking for everyone to submit current job descriptions to management, although it was just confirmed to me today that Bordiers has layed off some of their sales reps in Southern Cal. Yes, the box stores are struggling, but so are you, with many of your compadres giving up and closing down. But you are also wrong about being time for someone to do the math. You can sell a $4.50 plant to the box store for $3.99 and make money! In fact, we can sell it for a lot less than that, because it is not about price, but about turns. Our highest overhead is land and labor, and if we can turn it quicker, prune it less often, and ship it in larger quantities, we can sell it for a lot less. Even though you pay more, we make more from selling to HD and Lowes, and even the dreaded WM. So don’t worry about Dwight, or John, or even Jasmine. Their positions are secure as long as you are able to survive our present economic downturn.
Well, the days are now numbered, we have heard that Hines will be selling or fileing BK in a week or less. Maybe the new buyers are planning on fileing BK after the buy to write off the debt? We don’t know, but the rumors are really flying. And yes there are layoffs comming soon, and the Indy’s and Box store folks are now all targets!
fivetrees said that turns are where the $$ is when volume is, well, that is almost right, but the overall cost per item is the total cost of every plant grown. So if you do the math, and not use FUZZY math you still need to grow the product at a price that is less than the selling cost per item. And until you can reduce the overall cost per item by cost reductions in growing, overhead, land etc you still have to meet your bottom line on every plant grown. ANd nobody at Hines can tell you what it actually costs per item to grow ANY darn plant! So how can the math be correct today if even the Chief CFO does not have that data, nor does the planning manager!
I rest my case, Hines is now on the downhill ride and a lot of good folks will soon be looking for another job. When the ones who really need to be out of jobs are the CEO, CFO and planning team in TX.
Let the Indy’s sell what ever plant they can get thier hands on, don’t give it all to the BOX stores! Or leave the leftovers for the INdy’s…..
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Hines has been in a downward spiral for more than 8 years. I was part of the management team at one of the Hines’ sites and was mystified/terrified at the way the business was “run”. As the stock price fell, management scrambled to place blame and make changes that would, hopefully, indicate to the Board that things would turn around.
The first group of employees let go were what Hines considered the company’s “problem children”; aka those individuals with fresh new ideas, no ties to the established good ‘ol boys club, educated, business minded, etc. Steve Thigpen was the CEO then (but not for long). What a mistake – what a waste.
Sad but true: Over the years, the company’s management plan was based upon the best selling management plan book at the time. The management team had to read/discuss this garbage. And the plan changed day-to-day. It sounds as if Hines is still trying to define a business plan, a management plan, a sales plan, etc. – so sad.
Hines courted the big stores and figured that the independents would just come along for a ride. The sales staff took it for the team and was rewarded by cuts to their commissions, increases in quotas, removal of anything that resembled leadership, etc.
Hines is coming to an end and everyone knows it. Texas can’t make this go away by getting rid of more employees. There is no magic book to read. There is not a consultant in the world that can reverse this through PowerPoint presentations and wacky team building exercises.
Texas didn’t start Hines’ downward spiral but Texas is responsible for ensuring the death of Hines.
I’m sad for the good and ethical employees who had faith and believed in Hines; both former and current.
As for Texas and the good ‘ol boys – couldn’t have happened to a nicer bunch.
Well, more on the Vine looks like 4-5 Top folks just got promoted at HQ! Event the I/T lady who last week let go the consulting group that was to do the migration of one of the systems to the new system! Now the staff that is left hast to make the November deadline! What a joke, lets promote the person who makes the largest mistake!
And this new system just makes the Indy’s at the bottom of the picking list so they have little or NO product to sell…..Yep, this is the grand example of failure to complete Business 101, 102, 103, 104 and Common sense 100 !
Maybe this promotion thing is part of the big picture to make them look better for the new buyer?
And how does the CFO really figure out what the company is worth based on misleading sales based on retail sales prices when a LOT of customers have private agreements (contract files) with Hines to have great discounts on what they buy? Hummmmm Interesting, isn’t that called something line Company Value Inflating?
I also understand that the employees are now being paid weekly… not twice a month. If they go bankrupt and owe their employees money….. it will half as much as it could be.
The promotions are real. This is the end game. I wish the employees well and I wish the management goes back to school to really learn how to run a business. The Peter Principle Lives!
Could “Inside Hines” be more specific on who the “Texas good ole boys” are? This insinuation of Texas folks being racist and sexist needs more explaining. If you cannot elaborate then do not make generalizations about the people in my State.
I agree with alot of statements on this blog about the new management team at hines scewing up the company. But for the most part it sounds like alot of former hines employees that are very bitter that are just spreading rumors with no facts in there posts just alot of BS.
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